The science behind Sport Integrity Australia

On Side podcast - Season 6, Episode 3

The gender composition of our Science and Medicine team at Sport Integrity Australia is 90 per cent women. On this International Day of Women and Girls in Science, we speak with Assistant Director of Science, Dr Gemma Payne, about her role at Sport Integrity Australia.

Interview with Dr Gemma Payne

Dr Gemma Payne: Thanks for having me.

Tim Gavel: Tell us about your role here at Sport Integrity Australia firstly.

Dr Gemma Payne: So, I’m the Assistant Director of the Science team and we look after all aspects of science in doping for SIA. So, from engaging with athletes on a daily basis to help them understand the risks of supplements, help them through TUE processes, and also to help our Investigators our Intel Specialists and Legal team to understand any casework we've got.

Tim Gavel: How did you get into this field? Because you’ve got an interesting background.

Dr Gemma Payne: Well, I've always liked science. My earliest memory of liking science was in Year 5, so I was, you know, 10 or 11 years old. And I remember my teacher bringing in some sheep hearts from the butcher, and we got to cut them up and I was so hooked. And I remember asking the teacher, can I take them home with me? And she's like, ‘sure’. So, I bundled them up, took them home on the school bus, and showed my probably shocked family.

So, it's not surprising that I ended up doing a Bachelor of Science with Honours in Forensic Science and then continued on to do a PhD. I ended up working in forensics in a policing context and then saw this opportunity to come over to SIA to practise forensic science, but in just a different type of context.

Tim Gavel: Is it a natural progression for women to go into science? Is it something that women are interested in?

Dr Gemma Payne: Well, I think so. When I started out in forensic science, we actually had a lot of women doing the course. I think we had just under 20 people graduated in my year and the majority were women, so that was a really good representation. And when I did enter forensics, there was a great representation and there's a lot of fantastic female leadership in that space.

Tim Gavel: Are you interested in sport? Is that how you came to be at Sport Integrity Australia, combining the world that you were previously in with the world of sport?

Dr Gemma Payne: Uh, definitely. That was one aspect that was really interesting to me. I've always played sport, I’m not a sporting superstar by any stretch, but I, you know, I've always played tennis and softball and oz tag and all sorts of things. So being able to kind of marry two things was really appealing to me.

Tim Gavel: Just on a day-to-day basis. What sort of things do you do in science at Sport Integrity Australia then?

Dr Gemma Payne: So, day-to-day varies greatly, which is one of the really fantastic things about the job. So, I can one day be talking to an athlete, about either a case, maybe a positive test that they've had, or they've got a question about is this supplement safe to take, and I could be talking to them and helping them understand the risks.

I could be working with our Education team to develop packages. One of my favourite things to do is to go out to those outreach events and spend the day out. I went out recently to the Uni Games and manned the SIA booth there and just talked to athletes all day about different aspects.

Tim Gavel: Do you find that athletes seemingly are unaware of some of the dangers of some of the things they might be looking at taking?

Dr Gemma Payne: Yeah, definitely. It's so common in, I guess in the wider society, to just take the supplements that you can get in a supermarket or a chemist and not knowing the risks to them as an athlete, that potential to test positive from those.

Tim Gavel: Well, tell us about the role of women in science. Do you think you bring a different perspective, especially at Sport Integrity Australia and in the sporting field, do you give a different view that may not have been there in the past?

Dr Gemma Payne: I think so. I think it's really important to have women in science because it does give a fresh perspective. If we look at historical science, for hundreds of years it’s been dominated by men, so having that fresh perspective, recollection of data, reanalysis of data, it just goes to further evolve our knowledge and our understanding of different scientific concepts.

Tim Gavel: And if you have a look at the number of participants in sport, the majority are women too, so, you have, you have to sort of relate to them and fully understand what women are going through.

Dr Gemma Payne: Exactly right. I think having, you know, women would be a large proportion of athlete population, so having us represented in the organisations that help keep that sport safe is really important.

Tim Gavel: I would imagine too if an athlete rings up, a female athlete rings up, they'd be more than happy to speak to a female science officer, wouldn't they?

Dr Gemma Payne: Yeah.

Tim Gavel: So, there is that perspective.

Dr Gemma Payne: Yes. And sometimes, you know, we’re answering questions on medications or things that might relate to Women's Health as well.

Tim Gavel: Just on, I guess your own perspective, did you understand what was going on at Sport Integrity Australia before you joined? Did you understand the science behind a lot of what goes on at Sport Integrity Australia?

Dr Gemma Payne: Not to the extent that I probably do now. I think I had a, it is, I do consider it a type of forensic science, so the concepts are still the same, but I'm always learning every day.

Tim Gavel: So, you've got an inquiring mind, do you?

Dr Gemma Payne: Yeah, very curious. Yes, yes.

Tim Gavel: What do you find the most fascinating part about it? What's something that sort of you think, gee, I just find that so incredible. Is it a new discovery or is it trying to stay ahead I guess of people who might be trying to cheat the system. Is it something that, I guess, we probably haven't even thought about?

Dr Gemma Payne: I think it is, It is trying to harness new technologies to get ahead of the curve, I think that's the most exciting aspect and in relation to research and development.

Tim Gavel: Because that is a key part of it, isn't it, to understand what might be happening in the future and using the basis of history and what you've done in terms of research to find out where it might go in the future.

Dr Gemma Payne: Yeah, exactly. And we just try and look at, you know, other industries as well. We don't kind of just look at anti-doping science, we can harness technology or understanding from pharmaceuticals and all sorts of areas.

Tim Gavel: If somebody was listening to this and think, gee, I wouldn't mind getting into science at Sport Integrity Australia, what would your advice be? What sort of pathway should they take?

Dr Gemma Payne: Well, this is a great question because there's actually no defined pathway. There's no course in the anti-doping science that, you know, we would recommend. 

We've got such a diverse background, we have people that went through, you know, their physiotherapists, we have people that did haematology backgrounds, we've got myself in forensics, so it's really just finding the aspect of science that they like and applying it.

Tim Gavel: Gemma, why do you think that there is such a large percentage of women involved in science and medicine at Sport Integrity Australia? What draws women to this field?

Dr Gemma Payne: Never really sat down and asked them, like, why did you, why are you interested in this field. But I think a big aspect is that a big part of the role is needing to communicate scientific concepts to a lay person. So having a real interest and passion for communication, so perhaps that is one reason, I know that's an aspect that I enjoy and that's why I like it.

Tim Gavel: When people ring you up, especially, I guess women looking for advice on products they might be looking at taking, are you able to break it down into simple layperson's terms? Is that one of the things that you can do?

Dr Gemma Payne: That's definitely the goal that I try for.

Tim Gavel: So not too complicated?

Dr Gemma Payne: Yeah, you want people to, you know, hang up the phone or walk away from that conversation, feeling like they really have an understanding and not being bombarded by technical terms.

Tim Gavel: I'd imagine that gives you great satisfaction.

Dr Gemma Payne: It does, and that's why I like those outreach events because you really get that face-to-face as well, and you can see them walk away with a smile on their face.

Tim Gavel: Do you have sleepless nights thinking to wonder what's in the future in this field. Do you think I wonder what other people, certain bad actors might be thinking about how I can cheat the system. Do you think about that at all?

Dr Gemma Payne: No, I think the things that keep me up at night are ideas I've got. I wonder, I wish we could do this and that would be so cool if we could do that. So, they're the kind of thoughts that tick over in my brain.

Tim Gavel: Amongst sports scientists. Is there a lot of collaboration? Do you get ideas from other countries about what they're looking at and try and put it into practise at Sport integrity Australia?

Dr Gemma Payne: Yeah, I thought Forensics was a small community. And then I came over to anti-doping and it's such a small, tight knit community and I've got no problem, you know, picking up the phone or sending an email to one of my colleagues overseas to ask them for their take on an issue or a problem and we like to really share information. I really like that part of it.

Tim Gavel: Yes, I. I guess that given it's a small field, it's like a family. So, you’re sort of all working for the same purpose and the same direction, yeah.

Dr Gemma Payne: Yeah, it is. And when we catch up at a conference or a meeting, that's really nice as well. It is like seeing kind of old friends or family.

Tim Gavel: And just finally on the International Day of Women and Girls in Science, just how important is it to recognise this day do you think and to promote the fact that there are a lot of women involved in this field.

Dr Gemma Payne: I think it's really important because it serves as a reminder of all the people that came before us. So, whilst I might not have any particular challenges as a woman in science, I've been really fortunate, but I have to recognise that, you know, other people haven't been as fortunate. So, it's a really good reminder to recognise and be grateful for the opportunities that I've had.

Tim Gavel: Gemma, thanks very much for joining us on On Side today, terrific.

Dr Gemma Payne: Thank you. Thanks.

Tim Gavel: Good to chat. Thanks for listening to On Side. I'm Tim gavel. We'll be back with a new episode shortly.

Narrator: You've been listening to On Side, the official podcast of Sport Integrity Australia. Send in your podcast questions or suggestions to media@sportintegrity.gov.au.

For more information on Sport Integrity Australia, please visit our website, sportintegrity.gov.au.