Swimming in the Integrity Lane

Why Swimming in the Integrity Lane Matters

We chat with Swimming Australia’s National Integrity Manager, Lydia Dowse, and Complaints and Compliance Manager, Scott Elliott, to find out more about how they prioritise integrity for the safety of members and the long-term sustainability of their sport.

Podcast teaser

Lydia Dowse: People who are involved in our sport of swimming are entitled to a fair, a safe and happy experience.

Scott Elliott: The most important thing is listening because there's more than one way to resolve an issue.

Lydia Dowse: There's a different way of dealing with every complaint. Of course, if it's very serious, then one of the great advantages we have these days compared to in the past is that we refer, obviously those matters to Sport Integrity Australia. We do work directly with parents to help them see the benefits of swimming outside of the pressure of winning. Everyone's jumped on board. Technical officials, coaches, our CEO, our board. Everybody's sort of part of it..

Scott Elliott: An investment in integrity really is an investment in the long term sustainability of sport. It matters. It's important.

Interview with Lydia and Scott

Lydia: Look, it is hard because you're dealing with mostly volunteers at club land. And what we found from our interactions with a lot of club people is that they didn't know very much about the National Integrity Framework or about the function at Swimming Australia. And so we found that if we had an awareness campaign called National Integrity Month, we could really raise the understanding of what we do at Swimming Australia in integrity, what our standards are, and also what the National Integrity Framework is. So that was the purpose of the campaign.

Tim: Yes. We'll talk about the acronym FISH in just a moment in getting the message out. But firstly, it is a very complex area, isn't it? Especially for a volunteer who may not firstly have the education around this issue, but also they're very time poor. So how do you get the message out and say, listen, it's not totally bamboozling, it's okay if you come to us with questions, how do you deal with something like that?

Lydia: I think we really wanted to make it straightforward and only to concentrate on two major issues, which was protection of children and also member protection. 

So not trying to cover the full ambit of integrity matters, but just to keep it simple. And the simple message was that people who are involved in our sport of swimming are entitled to a fair, a safe and happy experience. And that was the key message, really.

Tim: Part of getting the message out I guess is the acronym FISH, which is Fairness, Integrity, Safety and Happiness. It's pretty clear, isn't it?

Scott: It is. And when we were thinking about the awareness campaign, Integrity Month, we brainstormed what we think is important for our sport and our entire ecosystem, and we came up with those words. And it just developed into that acronym, it wasn't deliberate, we just found that those words were something that really resonated with us, and it really connected well with our industry.

Tim: Scott, of course, you handle compliance and complaints at Swimming Australia. I would imagine with 80,000 members, you get a range of complaints. It's not just about, you know, the safety of athletes, but it's about bullying and intimidation, amongst other things. How do you deal with and make sure that you devote enough time to the more serious allegations and complaints?

Scott: Well, we take everything on its on its merits. The most important thing is listening, because there's more than one way to resolve an issue. So that's really important. Some people just want to be heard, and some people want to try and resolve issues as is their right, as opposed to other alternative methods such as complaints, processes and investigations. It's not always one thing or one way. 

So we listen and we work with complaints to try and resolve things. And there's often a misconception about what integrity is. It's a very negative connotation. But what we try and promote is that it actually benefits everyone. If we can try and help people resolve issues, then that benefits everyone. So it's a very positive thing.

Tim: Especially if it's consistent right across the board.

Scott: Correct.

Lydia: I think it's also, you know, the the, it's not just about being consistent, but it's about reframing what integrity is. And what we do is we say we're here to help. So if we say we're here to help, people are more likely to come to you, I think. And when they come to you, as Scott said, there's a different way of dealing with every complaint. 

Of course, if it's very serious or if it's about child safeguarding, then one of the great advantages we have these days compared to in the past is that we refer, obviously, those matters to Sport Integrity Australia, and that's been probably the single best improvement we've had in the integrity function, probably ever, I would say..

Tim: Yes, it does create transparency doesn't it? And you are able to show that there is certainly guidance for sports in the first instance, but also a pathway through so that it can be dealt with properly.

Lydia: Correct.

Tim: Lydia, just on swimming itself, given it is so wide a sport in terms of the people that take part in sport, in swimming, for instance, you've got swimming at a grassroots level involving very young people, and then you've got the elite, and then I guess you've got masters as well. So getting a message clearly across to all of those different demographics. Is that something you've had to deal with to work out what resonates with, with what demographic?

Lydia: Yes it is. We, we work mostly with our clubs and our high performance people, but we can't do it by ourselves and one of the things that we have really tried to improve on is, is getting everybody in our ecosystem to say what we say. So whether that's board members, member states, clubs, high performance people, that everybody has a role to play in integrity. It can't just be two people. It has to be everyone singing from the same songbook, if you like. 

And one of the things that does help us and certainly helped us this year was our Australian Dolphin Swim Team at the Olympics and Paralympics displayed, both in and out of the pool, all of those FISH values, and including in those, tremendous sportsmanship. And I think when, when we have role models that do that, it makes our job a lot easier.

Tim: And Scott, in your area with compliance, good governance is very important, isn't it. Right across the board that creates a very safe, safe place for everybody involved in sport.

Scott: Absolutely. Well, governance underpins everything and there's no expiry date on continuous improvement. And I think that's one of the key things we're trying to help our sport reflect, review and just continue to improve and be proactive, and by doing that, they'll benefit their club and swimming overall.

Tim: Yes, I would imagine you mentioned they're proactive and that would be, you know something Lydia, that that other sports may look at swimming and say, well, this is what swimming is doing to get the message through, to get people understanding the importance of safe sport and how to implement it and get the message through. Is that what you're hoping to do, by leading in this way?

Lydia: It is. Yeah, because we will always react to complaints made. And in the past, I would say most of our work was reacting to complaints. But what we want to do is get on the front foot and say, what can we do positively and proactively to get key messages across to really help people understand that these are our standards. And also, if something does go wrong, there is someone to talk to. There is a place to call, whether that's Sport Integrity Australia or Swimming Australia. Pick up the phone and have a conversation with us and we are here to help. 

So we've sort of reframed the integrity function from being a reactive complaints department to a proactive communications led department, where we are open to hearing from you. We encourage people to speak up and, and we want swimming to be a safe environment for everybody, as you say, whether you're you're young, whether you're still swimming in middle age or whether, you know, you're swimming at an old age, it doesn't matter. You're entitled to a safe and happy.

Tim: Now, having been in a swimming family and watching coaches over the years, I think it's fair to say that coaches are now changing their ways. There's no more yelling at swimmers from one end of the pool to the other. There's no more belittling of swimmers, there's no more talking about swimmers weight, etc. and it's a very positive environment. That's certainly what is happening as far as I can see. Is that what you're seeing in the, I guess, the space that you work in?

Scott: Yeah. For sure. I mean, if we look at it at a high level, the National Integrity Framework's probably the biggest or certainly one of the biggest pieces of reform in sport. So our role is to, to educate and continue to educate all parts of our ecosystem, that includes coaches, on what our policies are, and those policies are there to protect everyone. 

So it's important that we, discuss with our with our sport what the entitlements are and also what, what the obligations are. Because as Lydia mentioned, everyone's got a role to play in the environment that they operate in. And an investment in integrity really is an investment in the long term sustainability of sport. It matters. It's important. 

So the more we can normalise integrity and educate our sport, again, I go back to the more it will benefit everyone at every level, because it's, it's about being positive and about being safe. But those standards matter, and we have to have standards and we have to enforce those standards. And that is a role that everyone has to play in terms of speaking up and ensuring that there's awareness about what those actual standards and entitlements and obligations are.

Lydia: I think if you also, if I can add to the issue of coaches, Swimming Australia has done, a lot of work and is continuing to do a lot of work around coach accreditation or licensing and coach education. And we have more resources now to really focus in on who are our coaches, both from the club level all the way through, and they, those coaches now have to do a lot of integrity education to be licensed. They have to have obviously working with children checks and they have to demonstrate good behaviours to stay in the system. 

And that's all part of that compliance work that's being done behind the scenes. And I think you're right. There's been a change in our coaching systems and frameworks to make sure that the coaches that we have are the coaches that we feel we can have confidence in to provide the sort of environment that we're seeking.

Tim: If I can just paint a scenario for you as we move forward, a coach, um, is at the side of the pool during a swimming huddle, yelling out at his athletes, and then the athlete gets out of the pool. Obviously hasn't done as well as the coach would have liked. The coach belittles him in front of the other swimmers. What happens then? Is it up to a parent to report it, or what do you do in that circumstance?

Scott: Well, everyone has a role, anyone can report and that's the speaking up part. It's important that if you see something, you say something. And it starts with, in that instance, people knowing where to, to speak up in terms of how do they contact Swimming Australia? What do they need to do? How do they do it? 

And that's part of the integrity month, actually raising awareness about who to contact and what that means when you actually report something. 

So, yes, the club, the committee have a role, because ultimately they often engage the coaches. But if there's an allegation that a breach of, of our policies has occurred, this is where our framework is important and Sport Integrity Australia have a role under our Safeguarding Children and Young People policy. But we're here to provide support and advice for people to understand what that process means. So when you speak up, what happens next. And that's where we can help.

Tim: Because, uh, having witnessed that many times at the side of pools, at training and at swimming carnivals. Usually it's up to a parent or it has been a parent in the past that has approached the coach and said, you know, that's not on. You can't treat swimmers like that. And often the matter is sort of resolved until the next time. So it is a bit more formal these days, isn't it?

Scott: Yes, but a lot of things are resolvable. So we encourage clubs and committees again to, to set those standards and have those discussions with not just coaches but all key personnel and create that accountability and safe environment. Because everyone's accountable to those standards. 

So you're absolutely right. Some things and a lot of things are non-malicious and can be resolved at the local level. However, the greatest thing about this framework now is that the parents or others do have a mechanism to, to speak up and we take those policies very seriously.

Tim: I just wanted to have a look at moving forward. And you've had obviously, the National Integrity Month for Swimming and Swimming Australia. What was the response, Lydia, from the swimming community when you launched this program? You launched the acronym FISH and you were very much visible talking about integrity. What was the response from the swimming community?

Lydia: Well, we've had a very positive response. We've had all sorts of emails come through and comments on social media that's been a positive thing. Lots of thumbs up. I think people welcome it. I think they feel more confident in swimming if they can see, oh, there's something new, never seen that before. That there's, there's been this, campaign about swimmers. And also they've seen that everyone's jumped on board, technical officials, coaches, our CEO, our board. Everybody's sort of part of it. And I think it gives them a little bit of confidence. 

We've had really good feedback, and, you know, to be honest, I think even though it was an idea, which Scott had originally actually, to do something like this, I don't think we would have been able to do it to the level we did without the support of the Australian Sports Commission or Sport Integrity Australia. 

The Australian Sports Commission provided the, the funding for us to do it, which was tremendous, and Sport Integrity Australia met with us weekly to come, talk about ideas come through with all sorts of initiatives to make this work. And they also supported us by contributing to some of the activities that we, that we undertook. But overall, it's been a positive initiative and one that we intend to do annually.

Tim: Another aspect of this, of course, is the win at all costs, because I do see it at a very young level where the parents are, you know, very much invested in, in their kids sporting future. How do you pull back from the win at all costs? Because it still exists. I saw it the other day where a parent was getting angry because the child wasn't performing up to their standards. How do you instil that in parents as well? Not just not just the swimmers themselves.

Lydia: Well, there is the Win Well strategy now. I think the Australian Sports Commission has done a lot of work on this to make sure that we win. Well, we don't just win. Uh, I think it does start to trickle down from the top from, you know, the national team down. But you're right there are still plenty of parents out there. 

In fact, we had one today, write to us, claiming that his son was going to be a champion one day and that was the framing of his email. And we still have emails like that and comments from parents about how much they are putting into swimming to make their child win. We do work directly with parents, to help them see the benefits of swimming outside of the pressure of winning and how difficult it is and what commitment is required if you are actually aiming for the national team.

Tim: Yes, because one of the messages in FISH is happiness and sometimes people see kids that are happy in sport as not taking it seriously. So you've got to get I guess you've got to get that message through that happiness is very important when it comes to, to training and competing, if an athlete is happy, well, they'll stay in the sport in the first instance, but also and it takes away a lot of that pressure whereby the athlete feels as though they've got to have that stern face on all the time and, and not appear to be happy in their sport.

Lydia: Well, one of the, one of our greatest swimmers, Kaylee McKeown, is, you know, we used through the campaign quoting her and her quote was, 'a happy swimmer is a fast swimmer'. You can't do anything well, unless you love it. And I think that goes across the board for everything in life. You're more likely to do something well if you're happy and, and you love it and you're in a good space.

Tim: Just moving forward. What else do you have planned? Is it just getting out to the swimming community and and reinforcing the message? I mean, you've got 80,000 members, 800 clubs. There's a there's a fair range there.

Scott: Yeah. I mean, this is, this is not something where we just stop and do it once a year. It's, it's a continual, engagement strategy with our clubs and, and everyone really coaches, officials, staff, our athletes, from community level to, to high performance. 

So, we engage with our stakeholders and member organisations and other key people as part of our sport to enable them to become the champions of, of our integrity framework, because, as Lydia mentioned, we can't do it all ourselves. 

We have to enable other people to promote those messages, promote that important information and, ensure that it's filtered down right through to grass roots, but also, right up until high performance. It's, the messages are the same. But we can't do it on our own. And we need other people to connect with who also, assist us with where we want to go with this. And that is it's got to be normalisation of integrity. We want to normalise it. I mentioned earlier, sometimes there's a negative feeling about what integrity means, but we want to flip that to, to create that positivity about what it means, and then it benefits everyone. 

So that's an ongoing thing. That's not something that we're going to do once, that was the integrity month, that was just one large project. Those initiatives, that engagement, that connection, that alignment that we're seeking is an ongoing thing.

Tim: Yes. Congratulations. I think it's great the way that you're approaching it and that you're getting out to, to everybody and making sure that that everybody feels as though they're engaged in it, and a real buy in from the swimming community. So, well done, Lydia and Scott, and thanks very much for joining us on On Side today.

Lydia and Scott: Thank you. Thank you.

Tim: Well, thanks for listening to onside. We'll be back with a new episode shortly.

Narrator: You've been listening to On Side, the official podcast of Sport Integrity Australia. 

Send in your podcast questions or suggestions to media@sportintegrity.gov.au. 

For more information on Sport Integrity Australia, please visit our website, www.sportintegrity.gov.au.