Sport on notice

Sport on notice with Richard Young and Adair Donaldson

We speak with legal experts Richard Young and Adair Donaldson. Richard Young is a leader in anti-doping litigation and has worked on cases against Lance Armstrong, Floyd Landis, Marion Jones, the BALCO doping scandal and the Essendon supplements case. Adair Donaldson specialises in assisting survivors of trauma.

PODCAST INTRO

“Welcome to On Side, the official podcast of Sport Integrity Australia. Our mission is to protect the integrity of sport and the health and welfare of those who participate in Australian sport”.

Tim Gavel: Hello and welcome to On Side, the official podcast for Sport Integrity Australia. I'm Tim Gavel. Our podcast provides listeners with an opportunity to learn about integrity issues through athletes, coaches and administrators talking about contemporary and historical moments. On this episode, we'll be joined by two leading sports lawyers, Richard Young and Adair Donaldson. 

Sport Integrity Australia's 2023 Annual Update is out later this month. The course is for athletes, support personnel and other members of the Australian sporting community to highlight changes to the World Anti-Doping Agency prohibited list, as well as providing other integrity information that is vital to know in 2023. 

In other news, Sport Integrity Australia will be sending a team member to Interpol on a secondment to share knowledge and help with the development of a united approach to getting ahead of the global match fixing threat. 

And we'd like to congratulate our Sports Engagement Team members Richard Nicholson and Petria Thomas who were honoured by the University of Canberra for their contribution to the sports industry. 

And congratulations to Dr Kira James, who was announced as the inaugural winner of the Ken Fitch Fellowship award earlier this month.

INTERVIEW WITH ADAIR DONALDSON

Tim Gavel: Hello and welcome back to On Side. We've been joined by Adair Donaldson. Adair is the director at the Australian law firm Donaldson Law. He specializes in assisting survivors of trauma. He works closely with sporting bodies, addressing cultural issues with respect to harassment, abuse, violence and alcohol related issues.

Well Adair, being in the inner circle so to speak, hearing stories from athletes and sports firsthand, how do you see sport as being a positive driver in bringing about cultural change?

Adair Donaldson: So Tim, first of all my background, I'm a lawyer based in regional Queensland and I suppose what I was seeing at the coal front was, the coal face, was that you were seeing these young people that are making really poor decisions in relation to alcohol, drugs, sex, fights, motor vehicles, those sorts of things, and that's what we're facing, we're facing these issues as a society. 

And an opportunity presented itself back in 2007-2008 where we developed an educational resource to really challenge audiences to address these issues and that was when the NRL came knocking, and since 2008 I've been working with the NRL and assisting them to develop their educational resources, and what I can say is that the great thing about sport is that it disarms audiences. 

So what I mean by that is that when an incident occurs, and sometimes there's really poor incidents that occur, that may make the front page of the newspaper but it means that we're starting to have that conversation in relation to these issues and people may want to talk about it, OK, as a sporting issue, but then if we start breaking it down we start having a wider conversation about what the impact is having it in the community and for me, that's really important. I look at the NRL and I may be biased here, but I certainly work with a lot of sports, I certainly work with a lot of schools and universities as well and a lot of employers, and what I can say is that the NRL is second to none when it comes to addressing these social issues, and they have to be. 

Let's not kid ourselves, because if one of these issues occur, then they know that they're going to be under a great deal of scrutiny. 

But so, you'd like to think that they're doing it for altruistic reasons to bring about change, but they're also doing it for efficiency reasons as well, because they know if they haven't got this under control that they are going to lose fans and they're going to lose sponsors, etcetera, it's going to have financial impact on them if they don't get it right. 

But certainly, what I've seen over the years, so if we go back to 2008, I think back in 2008 very few people were talking about consent back in 2008, so the NRL has led the way with respect to developing resources of our consent training and those types of matters, and then that has then permeated into the wider community as well.  

Tim Gavel: Yeah. I'd imagine too as a lawyer it's a very interesting time for you because there are different interpretations on abuse and legally, how does it stand up? Because we obviously see coaches on the sideline yelling out to their athletes, does that constitute abuse?

Adair Donaldson: Yes, yes Tim.

Tim Gavel: So as a lawyer, I would imagine that it's a very, very fine line for you, but very interesting at the same time.

Adair Donaldson: Oh very, very much so and the law has been evolving in that space with respect to abuse, but if I just come back and talk about the law evolving in other areas as well. 

So, the law has changed for instance, with respect to, we've seen the law develop with respect to mobile phones and social media, we've seen the law develop with respect or change with respect to laws regarding consent, and so as those laws have changed, what the NRL has had to do to educate their athletes is to make sure that they're aware of those consequences. 

The other issue that I suppose is a big issue for athletes and that is with respect to codes of conduct, and we've seen the former Australian cricket captain fall on his sword as a result of breaching a code of conduct there. A lot of people don't appreciate that in nearly every contract in the land, every employee in the land is bound by a code of conduct these days and it talks about that you will not bring your employer into disrepute, not only during work hours but outside of work hours as well. 

So that's a pretty big issue, and again, the only time that we start talking about those issues is when we see a sports person that gets, falls foul of it.

Tim Gavel: Yes. Do you find that, for instance, Athlete A was a driver for people coming out, and as we see more and more abuse cases and more and more cases of athletes transgressing and coaches transgressing, do you find that there is greater awareness and people feel as though they've got a greater voice to come to people like you?

Adair Donaldson: Oh Tim, it is one of the greatest privileges that we've had, is that we've been able to look after those incredible women that came forward in the wake of Athlete A and called out the behaviours that had occurred in the past. 

Now it took such courage for them to come forward and if I look back on those group of gymnasts, and gymnastics in particular, is the wonderful thing that they had was this solidarity amongst them all. There wasn't just one person coming out and saying 'hey, this is what's happened', and then leaving that person out there to be carrying the weight themselves, this was this group of incredible women that came forward and said, 'What happened to us as children should never, ever have happened and it needs to be changed.' 

Now in the wake of them coming forward we've seen what happened, we've seen the steps that Sport Integrity Australia has taken, we've seen the redress scheme that has been put in place by the Australian Government. 

So, the power of those women and them coming forward and sharing their trauma has made such a big difference for others, and I can say that those women are the most incredible and impressive women. What they survived, and what they were put through as children, it should never have occurred and you would like to think that there's other sports that are looking at what happened in gymnastics and they're saying 'but for the grace of God, we weren't out there but we should learn from that experience and we should make sure that we're implementing all those recommendations that came out of the difference inquiries into our own sport'. 

That would be a really big start because we can learn so much as a result of the gymnastics experience.

Tim Gavel: How did the athletes end up coming to you? How did these gymnasts know to go to Adair Donaldson?

Adair Donaldson: [CHUCKLES] Tim, I suppose that over the years I've developed a reputation in that area of standing up for athletes’ rights and as a result of that they reached out to me.

Tim Gavel: Because it is a trust thing, isn't it?

Adair Donaldson: It is a trust thing, and that's, so what we do is we look after people that have survived trauma in institutions and generally speaking it takes a long time for a person to come forward to share that trauma and when they do come forward, well that's a big effort, that's a big step for them to take and you're right, it involves developing trust there and I suppose what it makes is, from my perspective, it makes it very easy to do your job when you're looking after such incredible people that are strong, courageous, stoic individuals.

Tim Gavel: Are they looking for somebody to speak to or are they looking for redress, as you've mentioned, are they looking to punish?

Adair Donaldson: No, no.

Tim Gavel: What are they looking for?

Adair Donaldson: So, one of the things that, a lot of people say that when people that have survived abuse come forward it's all about money, well, that's not what it is in my experience. 

Invariably, when a survivor comes forward that has survived abuse in an institution, they're looking for four A's, and the four A's are the first ‘acknowledgement’- an acknowledgement of what happened. Secondly, an ‘apology’. Thirdly, an ‘assurance’- by them coming forward and sharing their trauma that it’s going to make a difference for others and then finally ‘assistance’. 

So, you'll appreciate that when we talk about those young athletes that came forward, children and some of them we're talking 6, 7, 8 years of age when it started, that they've got debilitating injuries as a result of what they experienced. They're receiving no support at the moment, there's no support out there for them, so it's pretty important to make sure that there is going to be some assistance that's provided to them. 

And the government has done that recently with establishing the redress scheme that's available for people that went through the Australian Institute of Sport. So that's important, that was a very positive step that was taken by the Australian Government, but I'd like to see that rolled out to a far wider group.

Tim Gavel: Given your experience, is it the tip of the iceberg or do you expect a lot more to be on its way?

Adair Donaldson: I think that we're talking about these issues, and I think that more people feel comfortable coming forward now and sharing their understanding or their experience of what happened. I think that episode that happened with gymnastics, what made that unique was that there was a large cohort of these women that had solidarity with each other, each one of them had each other's back. 

That's what made it so incredible. They all came forward, it wasn't just one out, it was a group of former gymnasts that came forward that said 'hey, this is what happened, it wasn't good enough, there has to be change.' 

So it was that solidarity, I think that that's quite unique. We've seen other sports, for instance, in relation to swimming, it seems that with swimming that they've done a recent investigation there, and I think that to their credit they came out and they have acknowledged that they have had issues in the past, but what we saw with swimming wasn't that group of athletes coming forward banding together to tell their stories.

Tim Gavel: The National Integrity Framework, do you see that as an important piece of work going forward in that at least sports now have an understanding of a framework and guidelines about their responsibilities?

Adair Donaldson: Very much so, very much so. And that's, again, is a very positive step to take and that has been largely led by David, who obviously has got an incredible support team behind him, but David Sharpe had led that, and I think that it's incredibly important for sports. 

It gives sports a lot of comfort I suppose from a point of view that they know that there's an independent body that's going to be reviewing it, that the complaints can go to, that going to be an independent investigation that's then going to be held, so that's really, that is very important. 

And if we use other examples of how that has had success in other areas, I know for instance with the Australian Defence Force, when they had allegations with respect to abuse and integrity and those sorts of things that they set up an independent body that people could then make their complaints to. 

So, I actually think that that is a really positive thing because from the sports body, from the sporting organisation, it's got some comfort in knowing that there's going to be an independent body that's going to be reviewing us, that's going to be holding us to account. That's quite important.

Tim Gavel: Not everybody who feels as though they have been abused is going to get comfort from it though, let's be frank.

Adair Donaldson: No, no, they're not, they're not.

Tim Gavel: And they might feel as though not enough action is taken, and so not everybody is going to be satisfied.

Adair Donaldson: And that's going to be the case no matter what. There is going to be a significant number of people that won't be happy with that process, but it's the best we've got, and it's a far lot better than what we've had in the past. So that to me is a really good step in the right direction.

Tim Gavel: What do you see as the future? Are we going to see less abuse cases? Are we going to see more and more people come out and talk about historical abuse? Where do you see the future going?

Adair Donaldson: Well, first of all I think statistics will show that more people will come forward and report in relation to historical incidences. The reason for that is they're going to have the courage to come forward listening to other people, and they'll say 'OK', they now feel comfortable coming forward and sharing their trauma to make a difference but that means that the system is working. 

That means that people feel comfortable, and safe in coming forward in reporting and knowing that it's going to be handled correctly. So that's a good thing, so I would expect that there should be a spike, but gradually that will then tailer off. If you have a look for instance, I know that what happened over in the States with the, in relation to the US armed forces, they introduced a new body in relation to dealing with claims in relation to abuse and inappropriate behavior, and they introduced it and then the statistics showed that the incidents had been reported had trebled, and they said 'Listen, it mustn't be working, because look, it's just risen. It hasn't become better it's got worse', and their response there was 'No, it's actually got better because from the point of view that people now feel comfortable coming along and reporting.' 

So, I would like to think that there will be, I don't think anybody should be surprised if we do see a spike in people reporting abuse that has occurred, historical abuse that has occurred and what that will show is that people feel comfortable coming forward and sharing their trauma.

Tim Gavel: How should historical abuse be dealt with then? We've had obviously Human Rights Commission have a look at a number of issues, but I just wonder how can historical issues be dealt with from a sporting perspective.

Adair Donaldson: Well, obviously there's a national redress scheme which is able to handle it.

Tim Gavel: But if it's not sexual abuse.

Adair Donaldson: Yes.

Tim Gavel: …how can it be dealt with?

Adair Donaldson: Well which part are you looking at then? So, from the point of view -

Tim Gavel: OK, so a coach is sort of forcing athletes to train and they're suffering lifelong injuries, or they've got eating disorders, etc.

Adair Donaldson: Yes.

Tim Gavel: So how do you rectify historical abuse?

Adair Donaldson: Well, it depends what the athlete, what the claimant here is seeking. So, a lot of claimants may well be seeking that they're after an acknowledgement and apology for what has occurred in the past, and an assurance that systems have then changed. Now that's maybe what they're seeking and what will happen is if they were a minor at that point in time, they've still obviously got all their rights to then pursue their entitlements. 

Now what you're saying there is 'What happens if it's not sexual abuse?', in some of the states obviously, the legislation says that in relation to physical abuse that they may have suffered, OK, is still able to be pursued against the organisation.

Tim Gavel: From a police perspective, or?

Adair Donaldson: No, no, not from a police perspective from a civil perspective. Obviously, people have still got their rights in relation to their criminal claims that they make, and they'll always have those, but I would like to think that people that have survived abuse, physical abuse within sporting organisations have got significant options open for them to pursue rights now.

Tim Gavel: Where did athletes come to before you came on the scene or before people like you came on the scene? Did they just keep quiet?

Adair Donaldson: Oh, they kept quiet, they kept quiet. Tim, you're aware that over the last three or four years there's been some very high profile matters that have come forward or that have been going through the courts in relation to allegations of serious abuse that has occurred, and they have resulted in criminal charges, and I suspect the reason why people are coming forward now is that they feel confident that they will be listened to. Isn't that good? Because in the past these people have just suffered in silence.

Tim Gavel: Have you been surprised by the size of the issue when you first got that call from say a gymnast or a swimmer?

Adair Donaldson: No, I suppose it doesn't surprise me because after being in this field for so long, you know that where there's children, unfortunately there has been abuse.

Tim Gavel: Yeah, but it seems as though it's everywhere at the moment, doesn't it? Pick up the paper and there seems to be an abuse case almost on a daily basis before the courts where previously there hadn't been as much and it was almost like a hidden problem I guess, and I just wonder did you think possibly they're not going to come out and speak about it?

Adair Donaldson: I suppose for the last 25 years I've been working in the space of assisting people that have survived abuse, so after 25 years you've probably developed an approach where you think 'OK, well, there is going to be some bad people out there and that they will have done bad things', and to me, I come back to the fact that if we can be assisting in caring for people now and to be assisting them to get through the trauma and that they feel as if they've been heard and they're getting an assurance that by them sharing their trauma that's going to make a difference for others well, isn't that an incredible thing?

That these people can come forward and something that they walk away thinking 'well, as a result of my sharing my trauma I have made a difference for others'.

Tim Gavel: Well, it's good that they feel as though they've got somewhere to go to now, whether it be you or Sport Integrity Australia or wherever they know they're going to be listened to.

Adair Donaldson: Yeah, and that's very positive.

Tim Gavel: Adair, keep up the good work.

Adair Donaldson: Oh, thank you so much Tim. Thank you, thanks for showing interest too Tim.

PODCAST OUTRO

Podcast outro:  You've been listening to On Side, the official podcast of Sport Integrity Australia. 

Send in your podcast questions or suggestions to media@sportintegrity.gov.au. 

For more information on Sport Integrity Australia please visit our website sportintegrity.gov.au or check out our Clean Sport app.