Positive test to positive influence

Interview with Cassie Fien

Tim Gavel: Hello, and welcome to One Side, I'm Tim Gavel.

Protecting athletes from current and emerging threats is a key role of Sport Integrity Australia. Our shared mission is to build trust with athletes, sports and fans to allow everyone the opportunity to compete on a level playing field. To achieve this and to truly understand the integrity threats within sports, we work in partnership with everyone who holds a piece to the puzzle.

Our Athlete Advisory Group informs our strategic direction and shapes education strategies through insights into the pressures and influences that can threaten the integrity of sport. Engaging with athletes who understand their environment and the pressures of sport better than anyone helps us enhance our operations and policy development.

Marathon runner Cassie Fien has been a member of our Athlete Advisory Group for four years. She came to the role with a wealth of experience as an elite competitor, but also with lived experience as a sanctioned athlete, and Cassie's term on the Athlete Advisory Group came to an end recently. 

Cassie, it's been an incredible four years and it was great that you could provide an insight into, you know, exactly what you went through. It's sad that it's come to an end, but you made a great contribution.  

Cassie Fien: Yeah, yeah. I was sad to hear when the term came up. As athletes, we can only do two terms, which, that means that, you know, fresh people can come in and give a new perspective. 

So, yeah. I didn't realize it snuck up on me a little bit too quick, but, yeah, I really enjoyed my time, a part of the AAG, meeting other members, and, yeah, getting everyone's insight and, making it, a more harmonious partnership between athletes and Sport Integrity Australia.

Tim Gavel: And I'm sure your advice was called upon quite regularly, given that you had served that sanction for nine months a number of years ago, did you feel as though that was an important role that you played? 

Cassie Fien: Yeah, definitely. I think that with having the lived experience, it was really beneficial because, I think with myself, the education prior to that, it wasn't very athlete centred. It was more so what the, the agency was looking after. Whereas being a sanctioned athlete, it gave Sport Integrity Australia a perspective of what athletes go through and yeah.

Tim Gavel: What was that time for you like, serving that sanction? Looking back, I guess, you know, time has healed it to a certain degree. But what was it like at the time when you were going through that sanction?  

Cassie Fien: Yeah, it was, it wasn't a very nice time getting sanctioned. There definitely was a lot of dark periods, during that time. And yeah, a lot of hope lost. Lost my identity, didn't really know what was going to happen, and I couldn't really see any future. 

But once I, you know, got through the process, and, you know, started to just take things day by day, I eventually got through it, but it still lingers over, over you forever, I guess. You always think back and, what if and what could have happened. 

But, yeah, eventually I got to a point where I drew a line in the sand and just had to move on, but, yeah, it always will, I think I've said this before just, kind of like this little cloud that follows you and hangs over your head. 

Tim Gavel: So how important was it for you to have that experience on the Athlete Advisory Group to advise Sport Integrity Australia, and before that, ASADA. 

Cassie Fien: Extremely important for me. As I said, with the education prior to SIA really taking it, because at the time it was ASADA when I just started going through the process and there was a change in the agency. A new CEO had come in, and the education prior to that was this sentiment of like, just don't take anything, just eat real food. 

And, you know, was coming from people that, you know, not necessarily into sport, just mainly like, you know, scientists or people that just weren't, I'm not saying scientists aren't, but I'm saying these people were very academic and didn't have any type of lived experience. And so it was really confusing as an athlete. I consider myself as someone that has quite a lot of common sense. 

And I, I really, honestly thought that when you get caught cheating or doping or whatever, that means that you've gone on the black market and you've got drugs or you've met, you know, someone in the side street, I, the message that came through with all the education was, was not that, hey, like, it could be a supplement that you buy down in your local shop. 

You know, it was always a message like; 'oh, just don't buy online and don't buy from America'. And then also having this message of don't take anything. But then you've got your athletes that you look up to that are promoting protein powders and are promoting, you know, supplements for recovery. And I'm like, well, they can't be promoting that and that be illegal. 

So they must just be trying it a scare tactic I guess. And so, once what happened to me happened, I realised that, oh my gosh, this can actually happen to anyone, and it was really important to me, to get that message across. And the only way I could see doing that was to share my story and to be vulnerable. And that’s what I decided to do. 

Tim Gavel: So education, you're saying, was the key there and the need for more education. Certainly, that has been the focus of Sport Integrity Australia over that last four years. So, it seems like there has been this uplift in education to prevent something like what happened to you happening to anybody else. 

Cassie Fien: Education was definitely the key. And it wasn't necessarily more education, it was the right education, and SIA were really committed to understanding what an athlete needs to be able to get the message across, for something to sink in. 

And I think from having my lived experience, and I was just an Australian athlete trying to do what I do, I wasn't a part of a, you know, a bigger team or anything, I was just doing my thing. And yeah, I guess the message was quite powerful to see that, I literally went to a local nutrition warehouse to buy a supplement of natural ingredients, and then I still came up with what was in my product. 

I think the differentiation as well between, you know, supplements and drugs, I think that it was just, we have this conception of, you know, someone's doing drugs, testosterone or EPO, all those type of things, but you know supplements do have things that are quite legal to buy but are not legal within the sporting world.

Tim Gavel: When you say, the education, not necessarily more, but getting the message through. And part of that, of course, is having former athletes or current athletes, delivering education seminars and outreach to, to current athletes that, that is so important, isn't it, just so that it resonates with, with current athletes otherwise it just goes over their heads and they tend to turn off.  

Cassie Fien: That's exactly right. It needs to come from an athlete that is either in that world and doing what they're doing, and you know, athletes particularly in that high echelon elite, or even sub-elite, you know, a lot of the time with our food these days, you're not going to, it's going to be difficult to really get everything you need, because we're training at such a high a high load, and we're expecting to put our bodies through so much, that there is in some situations where a supplementation is needed. But then we need to get the message across that, yeah, let's get everything from our food first. 

And then if you do need that supplementation, let's go to an accredited dietitian. Let's go to an accredited doctor that knows the sporting world. Let's have an honest conversation with them and find out what actually you really do need to be able to get out the best for yourself in a safe, possible way, within the rules and regulations of the sport.

Tim Gavel: And just on your time at Sport Integrity Australia on the Athlete Advisory Group, prior to that did you have any idea what went on behind the scenes at Sport Integrity Australia? 

Cassie Fien: And that's the other flip side of the coin, is that I got to understand what Sport Integrity Australia needs to do, and a big thing that came to me is that I guess back in the day when it was ASADA, particularly in the sporting world I was in, it was that they're just out to get athletes. Talking very broad here, but generally it was well, you've got to be scared of them, you've got to be worried about them, you know, they're trying to get as many people as they can, type thing. 

And when I actually was a part of the group, and I think it was a big change, when the new CEO, came in, David Sharpe, he was really adamant to let's try to formulate a relationship with athletes and the agency to, you know, win this war against, you know, people cheating on purpose. 

So with that, I began to see the other side of what the agency actually needs to do. And a lot of the time they’re governing from WADA, the World Anti-Doping Agency, and there's rules and regulations that SIA have to follow to be able to keep performing the role that they're doing to keep Australia safe. 

And for Australian athletes to represent Australia, we need Sport Integrity Australia. But then they still need to follow rules and regulations of WADA as well. So that really opened my eyes to, okay, not everything they do is to get athletes. They’re trying to help athletes be able to have a fair and safe sporting arena. 

Tim Gavel: And I guess part of your role too is to spread the message beyond Sport Integrity Australia, and you'd be speaking amongst your athlete cohorts and try to explain what Sport Integrity Australia does, and why it’s necessary to have Sport Integrity Australia. 

But you're right, initially there had been that misconception that Sport Integrity Australia was the police, and before that ASADA, and I guess it's really important to have that relationship with the athletic community in Australia. 

Did you find that that you were virtually an ambassador for Sport Integrity Australia when you went out into the athlete community?  

Cassie Fien: Yeah, it was. And it's still very hesitant, because you know people still have a bad taste in their mouth. I think for me it was really important to go, no, things have changed and they want to help, they want to be a part of the education, they want to give the athletes the ability to be able to access all the information they possibly can, so they can make an informed decision on what is best for them. And I really do see it now, and it's still an evolving, you know, situation. 

And I think it's a bit of cultural change that needs to happen, which takes time. But yeah, we’re together, we want the same goal. We want the exact same goal. And that's why it's really important, and I will, you know, continue to, to obviously support Sport Integrity Australia and everything that they're wanting to do. 

Tim Gavel: Just on yourself. You mentioned a moment ago that it's still like a cloud hanging over you, what do you think it will take for that cloud to disappear? Do you think it's going to be there forever, or is there something that you think, oh listen, it eventually will go? 

Cassie Fien: I don't think it will ever go to be honest. I think it's always, like it was quite traumatic, what I went through. And I know a lot of people go through a lot of very, very, a lot of hardships, but for me, really running was my world. And, you know, I take pride in myself and the things that I do and it really was like I was living someone else's life. 

Also, the hard thing is, is that because there is no delineation between whether you, you know, test positive for a supplement or whether you actually caught cheating, like, I'm still dealt exactly the same as if someone had been, you know, on purpose doing drugs, you know. There's no, you don't get put in, oh okay, that was that was a supplement, you know, that was named something different, you're not a drug cheat, you're someone that just made a mistake. But there is no difference. It's, you just get tarnished with that same brush. 

And I think for me, that was the biggest thing. It changed the direction of my sporting endeavours, of what I wanted to achieve, so now I'll just never know, what I was capable of. I'm fine if I, you know, did something and I never made, you know, the Olympics or whatever. But now I will never know, because it's completely changed the directory of where I was headed. 

Tim Gavel: Which brings me to a question we'll wrap up shortly on, just wanted to find out, though, how can the trauma be eased? Is there any way that it can be eased? And is that part of the advice that you were offering during your time at Sport Integrity Australia on the Athlete Advisory Group, just how can we do it better? 

Cassie Fien: Yeah, I think definitely for me, I know SIA has a role of what they need to do with sanctioned athletes, but delivering the message that, to give them avenues of, of lots of support and not to, you know, be treated like not I'm not a criminal, but, just taking into consideration what a sport means to an athlete. It's not just a matter of, oh, just, you know, stop a sport for a while or don't do that. A lot of the time it is really wrapped up in their friendship circles, their wellbeing, their emotional state of being and everything. 

So, I think it's just having all those support mechanisms within Sport Integrity Australia, to be able to offer the athlete a lot of support services, but not only that, offer it in a way that the athlete can absorb it again. It goes back to that same thing, a lot of the time you just you get told either over the phone or, you know, from an email. You're not absorbing anything, you’re not absorbing information, you’re just completely lost. So, it's a matter of taking it, bit by bit, not just delivering the information, there you go, checking back in and in constantly offering those support services. 

And, yeah, athletes with lived experience and linking athletes in that are willing to talk to other athletes that have been sanctioned to, to be able to know that, hey, like, this is really bad at the moment, but you'll get through the storm and you'll be okay. 

Tim Gavel: Great advice there, Cassie. Thank you very much for your contribution over the last four years at Sport Integrity Australia as part of the Athlete Advisory Group. You've added so much to the agency and once again, I'd like to thank you for that.

Cassie Fien: Thanks, Tim. I really appreciate that.

Tim Gavel: Thank you. Cassie. That's Cassie Fien and this has been On Side with Tim Gavel. We'll have another episode shortly.

Narrator: You've been listening to On Side the official podcast of Sport Integrity Australia. 

Send in your podcast questions or suggestions to: media@sportintegrity.gov.au.

For more information on Sport Integrity Australia, please visit our website: sportsintegrity.gov.au or check out our Clean Sport app.

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